Labor Unions at Call Centers [Archive]

DarthScully

Feb 4, 2007, 09:58 PM

Most unions here are company-specific and affiliate themselves with some national federation (TUCP, etc). At call centers, employee turnover is relatively high, making organizing and maintaining a union a challenging task.

Now, if there were one union representing all call center workers regardless of employer, I would imagine it could be quite powerful.

yes it would be powerful. ungranted leaves would be granted and salary discrepancies would be a thing of the past.

i agree. i've always thought that a Union should be established to protect all workers, since most employers have a "habit" of neglecting their duties to their employees, i'd say thats a good chunk of the reason for the high attrition rate alone. a Union does not only cover currently employed workers but those who are in between jobs as well (so long as you're within the same industry), that minimizes the abuse companies do over folks who are seeking employment with them (which i might add is so prevalent here in the Philippines, something i'd call the "flea market recruitment" mentality). putting a Union up would actually start implementing those laws that protect the worker that has always been there.

although there has been a running joke around here that given the atrocities that happens in a typical call center, once the Union comes in that call center would more than likely get shut down (like a typical factory) ;)

TravelBug

Feb 5, 2007, 12:26 AM

although there has been a running joke around here that given the atrocities that happens in a typical call center, once the Union comes in that call center would more than likely get shut down (like a typical factory) ;)
True. Call centers would need to conform to the demands of the labor union and that would have a direct impact on manpower cost. It might come to a point that the company would not be able to afford it anymore and just prefer to shut down. Probably move to China where labor is cheap?

DarthScully

Feb 5, 2007, 09:06 PM

True. Call centers would need to conform to the demands of the labor union and that would have a direct impact on manpower cost. It might come to a point that the company would not be able to afford it anymore and just prefer to shut down. Probably move to China where labor is cheap?

and where human rights is nearly non-exisitent :rolleyes:

SaintLuci

Feb 9, 2007, 12:14 PM

someone once told me... "ang hindi makatiis, umalis. ang hindi makaalis, magtiis." ... he is right... unions are a waste of time... but they are definitely needed by those who are at the bottom of the competetion - mga hindi makalipat dahil talagang mahihina...

Zion Theodore

Feb 9, 2007, 12:21 PM

I guess agents are tired after night shift to even afford to organized union. Besides most call centers are paying their employees higher compared sa ibang employees of other industries kaya generally di na maisip mag go againsts mngt pa. Maybe pipol nowadays esp the young ones are aware of the effects of joing unions, baka unemployment lang maging end result..

HansMon

Feb 9, 2007, 02:39 PM

pinoynetwit

Feb 9, 2007, 04:00 PM

Mag-ingat rin na wag mapasok ng mga fronts ng CPP-NPA-NDF ang mga unyon - kung magkaroon man...dun po mapupunta ang union dues niyo...sa CPP-NPA-NDF I should know, marami akong kaibigan sa AFP.

b_9904

Feb 9, 2007, 08:59 PM

Aside from the time committment that Unions require, they also deduct 'dues' from each of their members. While many people agree that call centers pay better salaries than most, how many agents will actually be willing to have any part of their salaries deducted for dues?

Word of warning though: This is an industry where companies are always trying to make sure their salary and benefits packages are competitive if not comparable. So while Philippine labor laws are pro-labor, once the DOLE sees and realizes that on top of a competitive salary, call centers also pay the proper if not higher night differential rates, plus allowances and benefits, they will probably find it very hard to recognize or side with any Union.

Unions were established to supposedly protect the rights of the worker. I say supposedly because the concept of a union has been abused and bastardized by many people in this country, and its usually the non-performers guilty of this. Should unions be formed within the BPO industry, its almost like sending a message to the Management of all these companies that whatever they have given and done is not enough. While it may be anyone's right to do so, is it reflective of the feelings of the majority? Or as I suspect, just the ramblings of a bunch of non-performers who want more than what they have worked for and are looking for something to hide their incompetence behind?

More importantly, should these companies decide that they would rather not deal with unions and close up shop here, can we all afford to find another industry that grows as fast and provides this much opportunity?

Napapost ako dito dahil sa post na ito ah...

hmmm... it seems na hindi na nagets ang idea kung bakit talaga kelangan ng union sa call center industry.

I.

FACT:

may mga agent na naabuso dahil wala silang bargaining power o power, in general, para malabanan ang abusong iyon.

Issue:

ano ba kasi yung mga abusong iyon?

Asnwer:

imagine being given a sked like this:

MTW: 10pm-6am, TTHF: 1PM-9PM

II.

sa unang tingin ok lang yung schedule, tama? pero subukan mo muna... im sure mumurahin mo ang HR dept mo.

it would totally ruin your biological clock in such a way na CRUEL ang gagamitin mong term to describe your working conditions.

III.

unions for the call center industry wouldn't bargain for higher wages or more benefits etc...

it would instead do something... novel, for a union that is. like protecting the rights of call center agents from unreasonable bonds, poor working conditions, or contracts.

IV.

Do we, hehehe i just join the industry kanina :rotflmao:, need a union?

OFCOURSE! safety in numbers, well with unions its power.

its not about the non-performers asking for more... its protecting the whole class from abuses.

b_9904

Feb 9, 2007, 09:03 PM

Mag-ingat rin na wag mapasok ng mga fronts ng CPP-NPA-NDF ang mga unyon - kung magkaroon man...dun po mapupunta ang union dues niyo...sa CPP-NPA-NDF I should know, marami akong kaibigan sa AFP.

i doubt if ganyang klaseng union ang hahawak sa BPO industry. most of us are educated after all. :D

ok i'll shut up now... luma;abas na pag ka eletista ko. :lol:

HansMon

Feb 10, 2007, 12:41 AM

Napapost ako dito dahil sa post na ito ah...

hmmm... it seems na hindi na nagets ang idea kung bakit talaga kelangan ng union sa call center industry.

imagine being given a sked like this:

MTW: 10pm-6am, TTHF: 1PM-9PM

II.

sa unang tingin ok lang yung schedule, tama? pero subukan mo muna... im sure mumurahin mo ang HR dept mo.

it would totally ruin your biological clock in such a way na CRUEL ang gagamitin mong term to describe your working conditions.

--You always have the option of turning the offer down if the sked is not something you are agreeable with. However accepting the offer states that you are amenable to those hours. Do not accept the offer and then complain about it. This is the industry you have chosen to enter. Nobody put a gun to your head to apply. This is the reason the industry pays the rates it does. If you don't like the sked or can't handle the hours, you are free to explore other industries. Perhaps you might be happier in a lower paying job with less advancement opportunities but with working hours that are more agreeable to your "body clock".

III.

unions for the call center industry wouldn't bargain for higher wages or more benefits etc...

it would instead do something... novel, for a union that is. like protecting the rights of call center agents from unreasonable bonds, poor working conditions, or contracts.

--It is obvious that you are very new to the concept of unions and thus, are idealistic. Ever heard of the saying [I]The road to hell is paved with good intentions[I]? Novelty wears off. Human nature takes over. YOU might have a novel idea but you cannot possibly control who joins your union or which direction it will take in the long run. Here's another saying: Give them an inch, they will want a foot... So true....So sad...

IV.

Do we, hehehe i just join the industry kanina :rotflmao:, need a union?

OFCOURSE! safety in numbers, well with unions its power.

its not about the non-performers asking for more... its protecting the whole class from abuses.

--Like I said, make sure you truly have the numbers. And even if you do, you had better have a back-up plan if the call center you work for decides to close up and move to another country because they don't want to deal with unions. What will you do then? Do you still feel like you made your point? Was it worth it?

Kapag patay na ang aso, sa tingin mo, pakiramdam pa din ng garapata na panalo siya?

DarthScully

Feb 10, 2007, 12:43 AM

its not about the non-performers asking for more... its protecting the whole class from abuses.

bears repeating :up:

HansMon

Feb 10, 2007, 12:44 AM

sorry, I messed up on quoting and interspersing my answers within your points of discussion:

imagine being given a sked like this:

MTW: 10pm-6am, TTHF: 1PM-9PM

II.

sa unang tingin ok lang yung schedule, tama? pero subukan mo muna... im sure mumurahin mo ang HR dept mo.

it would totally ruin your biological clock in such a way na CRUEL ang gagamitin mong term to describe your working conditions.

--You always have the option of turning the offer down if the sked is not something you are agreeable with. However accepting the offer states that you are amenable to those hours. Do not accept the offer and then complain about it. This is the industry you have chosen to enter. Nobody put a gun to your head to apply. This is the reason the industry pays the rates it does. If you don't like the sked or can't handle the hours, you are free to explore other industries. Perhaps you might be happier in a lower paying job with less advancement opportunities but with working hours that are more agreeable to your "body clock".

III.

unions for the call center industry wouldn't bargain for higher wages or more benefits etc...

it would instead do something... novel, for a union that is. like protecting the rights of call center agents from unreasonable bonds, poor working conditions, or contracts.

--It is obvious that you are very new to the concept of unions and thus, are idealistic. Ever heard of the saying [i]The road to hell is paved with good intentions[i]? Novelty wears off. Human nature takes over. YOU might have a novel idea but you cannot possibly control who joins your union or which direction it will take in the long run. Here's another saying: Give them an inch, they will want a foot... So true....So sad...

b_9904

Feb 10, 2007, 03:25 AM

aso, sa tingin mo, pakiramdam pa din ng garapata na panalo siya?

Ok, but would you be amenable to being abused? (im not saying na abusado ang call centers ha)

it doesnt matter if you earn money if your rights are being trampled on.

aanhim mo pa ang pera kung hindi ka makatulog. aanhin mo ang pera pag katawan mo durog.

human rights, and dignity, is too high a price to pay for high salaries.

b_9904

Feb 10, 2007, 03:55 AM

--It is obvious that you are very new to the concept of unions and thus, are idealistic. Ever heard of the saying [i]The road to hell is paved with good intentions[i]? Novelty wears off. Human nature takes over. YOU might have a novel idea but you cannot possibly control who joins your union or which direction it will take in the long run. Here's another saying: Give them an inch, they will want a foot... So true....So sad...

i am not new to the concept of unions... but maybe to the concept of greed. hehehe :bashful:

you are correct... but i would like to find out if indeed the union we would have for the bpo industry would "want the foot" rather than never finding out.

--You always have the option of turning the offer down if the sked is not something you are agreeable with. However accepting the offer states that you are amenable to those hours. Do not accept the offer and then complain about it. This is the industry you have chosen to enter. Nobody put a gun to your head to apply. This is the reason the industry pays the rates it does. If you don't like the sked or can't handle the hours, you are free to explore other industries. Perhaps you might be happier in a lower paying job with less advancement opportunities but with working hours that are more agreeable to your "body clock".

I.
yes, you could turn the offer down. but why turn it down if you could negotiate?

but how could you do that if you dont have the power to do so?

i mean in that example all the company had to do is to adjust your THF schedule to match your chedule for MTW. but here is the catch... what if the company doesnt want to because for them its too much work?

II.
its immaterial if the industry or the company pays well they dont have the right to violate human rights.

because we are not slaves, although in reality we are paid "slaves".

III.
We both have a point but we both take extreme stands.

maybe we need a moderate to enter our discussion.

LaGUNaMAN

Feb 10, 2007, 04:12 AM

Interesting arguments on both sides. One is obviously Pro-Company and one is Pro-Workers.

<soul_jah>

Feb 10, 2007, 07:29 AM

looks like this one's one bloddy hell of a discussion, esp betwenn HansMon & b_9904.:p

@HansMon..

I totally agree with what you said. it's not being pro-company or anything (this one's for LagunaMan). I mean, hell, we all signed up for this. we know what's at stake here. e bakit tayo nagrereklamo? :hmm: yes, it's a fact that in the call center industry, or in any other industry, there are a lot of f***ed-up issues & politics that we have to deal with. but hey, ganun talaga e. might as well learn to go with the flow.

@b_9904..

y'know dude, i've also thought about it too. i understand you're intentions are noble kaya mo naisip ang konsepto ng unyon sa industriya.. but then, *** mga issues that you cited as examples.. dude, sorry but they're pretty lame.. sobrang lame talaga. it's not even a basis para pagsimulan ng unyon. like i've said, you signed up for it. you know what's at stake when you join the industry.. tsaka haven't you heard of the term "open-door policy?" yes, dude. there is such a term. so para sa mga issues na ganyan, pwedeng-pwede kang lumapit sa HR or even sa director for ops para sabihin kung ano ang nasa isip mo, ayt. and kung na-agrabyado ka naman, there's the NLRC to help you out.

peace*okay*

b_9904

Feb 10, 2007, 08:37 AM

@b_9904..

y'know dude, i've also thought about it too. i understand you're intentions are noble kaya mo naisip ang konsepto ng unyon sa industriya.. but then, *** mga issues that you cited as examples.. dude, sorry but they're pretty lame.. sobrang lame talaga. it's not even a basis para pagsimulan ng unyon. like i've said, you signed up for it. you know what's at stake when you join the industry.. tsaka haven't you heard of the term "open-door policy?" yes, dude. there is such a term. so para sa mga issues na ganyan, pwedeng-pwede kang lumapit sa HR or even sa director for ops para sabihin kung ano ang nasa isip mo, ayt. and kung na-agrabyado ka naman, there's the NLRC to help you out.

peace*okay*
I.

dude, bat mo pa paabutin sa NLRC kung pwede naman mag-negotiate ang company and employees. do you know how much a full blown litigation costs?

the case usually never ends in the NLRC... a party usually appeals it to another tribunal.

enlighten me... if my reasons are LAME what reason(s) then would justify forming a union for the industry?

II.

Yeah, we all know what we are getting ourselves into. the question would be, is that an excuse not to form a union?

maybe you could say that because you are close to the management or maybe you are having a great time with your job or maybe you are just so competitive that you can defend yourself.

well, how about those who arent as lucky?

should we just look the other way?

i had a friend from an in-house call center, which got sued twice, who was terminated, or rather there was a conspiracy to do so, simply because she cant dance the tune of her supervisor, who in turn have a lot of issues with other employees (Office politics at its best).

open door policies are for call centers that respect people... but how many call centers have that kind of policy?

III.

Maybe knowing what we are getting ourselves into is the problem.

we use it as an excuse to justify the crap we see in the industry.

well, martyrdom doesn't fit me.

IV.

Re: no one forced us to join the industry.

come on... every company forced us to join the industry by offering the most competitive employment package in the whole country. with that act certain responsibilities are attached to it, ei: to give thier agents what is due them.

V.

Chinese: doesn't have the sound of "g"

Indians: imagine a two filipinos speaking in english. one using the tagalog intonation and the other using the cebuano intonation. (hindi ko po intention na mang-insulto ng kahit sino na taga visayas and some parts of mindanao. example lang po ito to show a point)

so... to which country would the BPO industry run to again?

HK is over crowded and is under CHINA. Singapore... no more building space. Taiwan similar problems with Singapore and China. Japan... nah... they wont consider this place.

WE really have the upper hand no matter which angle you look at it. The industry already factored in corruption of goverment officials, red tape, and UNIONS into thier business plans (for the big companies atleast).

VI.

Would unions destroy the industry?

i really do not know and care coz i was born with a silver table set in my mouth but i am concerned for those poor souls who doesn't really have a choice and cannot protect themselves.

remember this:

1) US AND UK BASED COMPANIES are used to dealing with unions (even extreme ones) while ASIAN BASED COMPANIES are not.
2) The industry is composed of educated individuals, even the agents. so the possibility of extreme union action(s) (a.k.a. the usual labor unions like the one which "assaulted" nestle phils. in laguna) is minimized.
3) WE would be voting which union would represent us. SO WE have the option not to vote for the extremist union(s).

LaGUNaMAN

Feb 10, 2007, 10:36 AM

And now, let's here the arguments of the ANTI-UNIONISTS (this one's for Bozz <soul_jah>?).

pusicat

Feb 10, 2007, 11:43 AM

"novel"...ahihihihi...writer po ba sila?:bop:

pusicat

Feb 10, 2007, 11:47 AM

alam nyo wag na kayo makipagtalo kase obvious naman na empty between:rotflmao: the ears yang pro union guy na yan.

HansMon

Feb 10, 2007, 01:13 PM

I will not label the pro-union sentiments as lame because if that's how you feel, well hey, that's your right. But as you can see from this forum alone, you already have resistance from people because they do not feel that your reasons for establishing a union are quite valid.

By the way, you do not elect an outside union to represent you. Kayo kayong mga empleyado ang magtataguyod ng union niyo at kialangan niyo pa ipa-certify/register with the DOLE. Again, you will have to justify its existence.

I cannot stress enough that if you are going to enter this industry, you had better make sure you know what you are getting into. What is there to negotiate about work hours when the cold hard fact is that we cater to U.S. based customers and their work hours are our graveyard shifts? Ganun lang talaga. And to say that you were forced into this industry simply because it offers the more competitive salary is like washing your hands of the fact that in the end YOU SIGNED THE JOB OFFER.

Am I pro-management? Perhaps more than I am pro-union at this point. I came from a company where the Chinese owner really abused the employees and thus, the establishment of a union was not only necessary, it was inevitable. But when it was taken over by another owner who tried to rectify the salary discrepancies upon his arrival, the Union was grateful for all of 3 months...then they went back to the usual practice of asking and asking but when Management turned around and asked for better performance in return, puro dahilan lang ang pampalit ng nakuhang salary increase. And mind you, the original union president who had the best of intentions like you was eventually replaced (by votation pa) by a younger and more militant union president. Like I said, YOU might have pure intentions, pero over time, the purity of your intentions either gets diluted or just plain lost.

Greed my friend is a trait that is not exclusive to Management. Unions are capable of it too.

Am I discouraging you to form a Union? Not at all. I am merely challenging you to make sure your reasons are valid and supported. Because if you try this and you do not get the support of the majority, you will only end up looking like a rabble-rouser or a troublemaker. You admitted in your initial post na baguhan ka palang sa industriyang ito. Siguro magpaka-tenure ka muna at manigurado ka na maganda ang performance mo bago ka mansulsol, para naman kapag humihingi ka na ng supporta, kilala ka ng mga kasamahan mo.

Empleyado din ako. Given that I am more identified with management than with labor, the Golden Rule still applies: He who has the Gold, makes the Rules. The work hours are as they are. The nature of the business is as it is. You may think we have an advantage over China and India which is why these companies might not close up shop immediately, but if the labor landscape becomes more unfriendly to the business owners, do not think they will put up with it longer than they have to.

You claim to have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth and that you are just thinking about the "common" people. Well the common people will suffer way longer than you if indeed we as Filipino workers end up driving away the industry that is providing us with livelihood.

The abuses you speak of at this point seem compartmentalized and manageable. Trust me when I say that if these abuses become more widespread and endemic, I will not be as pro-management as you think.

b_9904

Feb 10, 2007, 04:58 PM

^CLARIFICATION LANG PO *** I. :)

I.

when i gave the schedule of "MTW: 10pm-6am, THF: 1PM-9PM" i wasnt pertaining to the graveyard shift. OK LANG SAAKIN YUNG GRAVEYARD SHIFT AT SHIFTING SCHEDULE, to some extent lang ha.

the assumption, and argument, with the example schedule is this: You have two schedules that is conflicting and that conflicting schedule is ruining your biological clock. why is it conflicting MWF you are supposed to be asleep between 8am-4pm BUT during THF you are supposed to be working from 1PM-9PM and asleep between 11mn-4am.

Now am i just making up the example schedule... nope. to some extent it does exist. Two of my co-applicants in JPMC had a similar schedule.

if naranasan mo na ang JET LAG ganyan din ang mararanasan mo sa schedule na yan.

anyway, lets move on.

II.

Re: Resistance.

kanya kanyang opinion lang yan at bawat opinion may kabuntot na kalaban.

III.

am i HARDCORE PRO-LABOR (take not i did not used the word union)... mabe i am but i do beleive in JUSTICE (meaning fairness).

IV.

Why am i advocating for unions?

Simply because it would change the status qou (aside from the fact that it would protect labor, certain rights, and some of my dear friends in the industry).

V.

Re: Chinese owner and unions.

this things happen... sadly. would unions put the industry or the company in danger?

maybe. [The real answer is "i dont know"]

V.

Err... in case the number employees of a company is really big two or more unions would compete over the right to represent all the employees. hence, you elect unions (or slates for that matter).

sorry i didnt qualify my response.

VI.

I agree with you when you said "unfriendly labor would drive the industry away". that is why i am ANTI-EXTREME union actions... sadly... this is the norm. i just HOPE the BPO union would not follow the "nestle phils" incident.

VII.

Hmmm... in constitutional law the judiciary would annul any law passed by the legislature that encroachs (EVEN SMALL/MINOR ONES) on liberty protected by the constitution (ofcourse there are exemptions).

Maybe this is the reason i advocate protecting labor. Compartmentalized and rare abuses are still abuses.

[pak ****... nakikita ko na sarili kong representing labor upon passing the bar... damn hindi ako taga UP! hahaha]

VIII.

would i want the industry to go away... NO!

i would like it to stay. sarap kaya na mapagmalaking BPO center tayo ng mundo. (aside from the fact that business owners derive indirect benefits from the industry)

IX

PUSICAT: Sarap patulan ng comment mo pero wag nalang. hehehe god bless nalang sayo.

X.

sino ba ang tama saatin?

WALA namang mananalo dito. clash of opinion ito eh. wala namang tama talaga saatin.

pero one thing is for sure... it is an inevitable threat [for the companies and for those who fear them].

b_9904

Feb 10, 2007, 04:58 PM

Double Post

b_9904

Feb 10, 2007, 05:07 PM

Hansmon:

By the way, thanks for being a sport i like your ideas hehehe

b_9904

Feb 10, 2007, 05:13 PM

Re: Unions

correct me if i am wrong.

a LARGE WORKERS UNION could basically cover the whole industry (basta same industry kayo at line of work).

in this type of union you elect chapter representatives.

morphine_p3

Feb 10, 2007, 07:00 PM

everyone deals with shift problems may it be cc agents, sales people, people in the travel industry, baristas, convenient store ppl, even security guards. it's a fact of life. i guess the whole point of forming a union or probably an organization is to keep us in check of our rights. true, the bpo industry has been very "galante" over the years but there are a few bad apples in the tree. there are some who suffers from pay discrepancies and where the alloted leave credits stated in the contract are not given to the employee even after several escalations to several depts within the company. it's nice to have some sort of support system in cases like these.

DarthScully

Feb 10, 2007, 08:05 PM

"novel"...ahihihihi...writer po ba sila?:bop:

nov·el
Pronunciation:
\ˈnä-vəl\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, new, from Latin novellus, from diminutive of novus new

1 : new and not resembling something formerly known or used
2 : original or striking especially in conception or style

from here: http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

i dunno if you're just dumbing yourself down, but its actually a word that means more than the item found in libraries and bookstores. :bop:

DarthScully

Feb 10, 2007, 10:06 PM

hmm lots of company men giving their two bits. i wonder where the workers gone?

anyway, given that this discussion has now done more than just skim the surface, here we go*rubs hands together*:

i'm on b_9904 side of this matter. he/she isnt an idealist but a realist.

to the company men, the callous and the clueless there is a lot of practices happening in this industry-- in this country-- that flies in the face of the Labor Code (bordering on Human Rights). being compensated more than other industries doesnt justify wrong doings. even accepted occupational hazards isnt an excuse to put up with something that can be improved on or avoided. oppression, big or small, in whichever form, is wrong period. the mentality of "let sleeping dogs lie" is one of the aspects that keeps countries like the Philippines from being at par with other progressive countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan etc. i mean come on really, what makes them better than us? you cant say "they're more advanced", we all started out on equal footing after WW2, all had their fare share of political upheavals between that time and today, yet 60 years later their up there with the rest of the big guns while the Philippines is down here in the crapshoot.

from all the places and industries i've worked for, the biggest difference i've observed between the Philippines and a progressive country is mindset. progressive countries didnt get to where they are now because they told their people to "put up or shut up". they listened to feedbacks and they constantly improved. there is no difference between the kind of workers there from here (if anything, Filipinos are generally smarter and more adaptable modesty aside), all are fully abled and willing to cooperate, but each has various limitations and commitments set upon by other aspects of their lives (family, community etc), so in order to get a workforce that can run your biz to its optimum potential you make the system work for the employee not the other way around.

lets take the examples of schedules: lets say a particular employee can work at any day in the range of the 7pm to 7am shift except on wednesdays because of other commitments. in this country the employers will throw a hissy fit and fire the poor chap, or force him onto the sched regardless of the employee's needs, or worse right from the get go the Recruitment people wont hire the guy cuz "he's not flexible with the schedule", i mean WTF?! so how about other people who can fill in that wednesday sked? how about that worker who can fill in the other days and other times the other people cant work at? in a progressive country they take the days and times you say you can work and see how that fits their current workforce demand, you reach a compromise and its done, no problem, no biggie. and they completely understand (and even expect) that an employee has other things to attend to other than his job. you see what i mean about making the system work for the people? that scheduling thing is merely one example of a slew of difference between working here and working elsewhere.

its not always about the money people, half the time its the working environment that keeps the employee with a company or makes a bolt for the nearest exit interview.

if only the employers here were conscientious and humane there wouldnt really be a need for a Union. i know, i've worked for employers abroad that had a Union and one that didnt, and i say it was even more pleasant to work for an employer that had no Union, there was no rift between the bosses and the employees, a truly "open door" policy, but, my employers are very mindful of the Labor laws and what is rightfully accorded to their workers, in the same regard us workers are aware of our rights and what the employer is doing for us, so we appreciate that greatly, and one of the things that is an outcome of that is the lack of a Union, because we dont need a watchdog to look out for us and protect us from abuses (since it doesnt exist).

alright, i'm getting off my soapbox now :bashful:, but for the call center industry in this country-- specially those that claims to be at par with its counterparts in the US-- this place needs a union very badly.

TravelBug

Feb 11, 2007, 04:43 PM

Okay... now here's the question. Bakit hanggang ngayon wala pang union? If you are saying it is badly needed then form one and let's see where it will take us.

DarthScully

Feb 11, 2007, 08:00 PM

some of my co-workers here are looking to find a Union guy/ group that could represent us, and hopefully later the entire industry. the trick of course is to find a group w/o an agenda, which in this day and age is slim to none. we want to correct the abuses, not kill the industry. i know of a few ex-coworkers who have moved on to law school, part of their MO when the graduate is be available for call center people as reps when filing for legal action-- whatever reason that may be. it could all start with that and get the ball rolling from there.

HansMon

Feb 11, 2007, 08:18 PM

TravelBug

Feb 12, 2007, 04:26 AM

TravelBug

Feb 12, 2007, 06:35 AM

b_9904

Feb 12, 2007, 11:03 AM

"Abuses" happen anywhere, even in normal offices but I don't think forming a union is necessary to correct these. Let's take the example of people with dayjobs. In effect all of them are also being "forced" to come in at daytime during weekdays even if one of them has to attend to something else on Wednesdays. What will the poor chap do now? Can an employee really choose his schedule in this case if his job requires him to be at his office from Monday through Friday? Do you see what I am driving at?

-->RESPECT FOR THE AVAILABILITY OF AN EMPLOYEE IS AN ASPECT OF HUMAN RIGHTS!

tsaka na ako sasagot ng maayos nag-lalaro pa ako nf flyff.

read "bata, bata, pano ka ginawa" makikita mo yun dun (as a sub-topic).

The thing is only the union can impose that right upon management, in the absece of a law regulating such right.

Whatever you do, get someone who is "one of you". Someone who has been through what you have been through and not some militant, radical pro-labor clown who comes from another industry and thinks they can take up your fight for you because "they have been fighting for workers rights all their life".

Trust me, the minute you elect someone like that to represent you, there goes your bargaining power. Those people are all fight and no reason. As a workforce, the call center agent population is not your typical, conventional labor force. You are all way smarter than that. You deserve to be represented accordingly.

Good luck.

--> i second that.

TravelBug

Feb 12, 2007, 01:13 PM

-->RESPECT FOR THE AVAILABILITY OF AN EMPLOYEE IS AN ASPECT OF HUMAN RIGHTS!

tsaka na ako sasagot ng maayos nag-lalaro pa ako nf flyff.

read "bata, bata, pano ka ginawa" makikita mo yun dun (as a sub-topic).

The thing is only the union can impose that right upon management, in the absece of a law regulating such right.

Here's another example of respecting the availability of an employee in a call center environment. Has anybody heard of shift bid? Agents are being consulted for their availability and are being asked to select their own schedules based from a predefined roster. An agent chooses his schedule but still doesn't show up. What should the employer do in this case?

Respecting the availability of an employee is of course an aspect of human rights but we should also analyze the practicality of imposing such concepts.

b_9904

Feb 12, 2007, 01:40 PM

Here's another example of respecting the availability of an employee in a call center environment. Has anybody heard of shift bid? Agents are being consulted for their availability and are being asked to select their own schedules based from a predefined roster. An agent chooses his schedule but still doesn't show up. What should the employer do in this case?

Respecting the availability of an employee is of course an aspect of human rights but we should also analyze the practicality of imposing such concepts.

hmmmm....

practicality of imposing such concept?!?!?!

pak sh!t! pag nabasa ng mga justices yan aatakihin sa puso yun!

hahahaha :rotflmao:

there is nothing wrong with the concept dude.

anyway...

Question:

1. how many companies offer this kind of scheme (shift bidding)?
2. does instances of irresposibility justify ignoring the right?
3. are those instances of irresponsibility enough so that the industry would not set-up a union?

FLYFF!

Storbo ang pex eh hahaha :rotflmao:

b_9904

Feb 12, 2007, 01:42 PM

Weee Page Starter Pa!

TravelBug

Feb 12, 2007, 01:47 PM

b_9904

Feb 12, 2007, 04:44 PM

There is nothing wrong with the concept but it isn't practical from the point of view of the business. I need you here now because you have the expertise to do the job at "this" time. You refuse to go because you need to be somewhere else. If you are the employer, what would you do then?

I.

ahhh... kk. na gets na kita.

Assumptions made with regards the exercise of the right:

A. Sudden Emergency
1) reasonable application.
2) in cases of emergency and other justifiable reasons.

*in this regard the philippines is REASONABLE in exercising this right. iba lang talaga walang puso at abusado.

B. Availability in general
1) Compromise between the employer and the employee
2) HR needs of the company is matched with those of the employee's schedule.

*THIS IS A COMPROMISE! In the RP setting the companies dictate when and where you should work... they DO NOT CARE if your kids doesn't have anyone to take care of them during wednedays. THEY JUST WANT YOU TO WORK SO THAT THEY GET PROFITS.

II.

In the example given earlier: what IF you are available only during mondays, tuesdays, thursdays, fridays, and saturdays. during wednesday you need to be excused coz no one could babysit your 5 year old kid. is it JUST to reject his application or to fire him?

The situation implies two things:

1. you, the employee, gave advance notice to the employer that during wednesdays you cannot work day shift.
2. the employer doesnt give sh!t about your sorry story.

III.

If the company needs you during wednesdays then they'll just have to settle for a temp.

If the company can do without you during wednesdays... then there is no harm done.

IV.

The thing is... in the RP setting companies are too lazy (actually its the HR) to accomodate the employee. i mean... hey! madami naman dyang papayag sa ganun set-up kasi DESPERADO makakuha ng trabaho.

V.

In a sense... hostage din naman tayo eh.

VI.

in fairness... pag ako yung may ari ng companya... wala din naman akong pake sa mga empleyado ko eh. pake ko ba kung mamatay anak nan basta ako masaya ako at kumikita.

SARAP MAGING BOSS!!!

DarthScully

Feb 12, 2007, 09:43 PM

Whatever you do, get someone who is "one of you". Someone who has been through what you have been through and not some militant, radical pro-labor clown who comes from another industry and thinks they can take up your fight for you because "they have been fighting for workers rights all their life".

Trust me, the minute you elect someone like that to represent you, there goes your bargaining power. Those people are all fight and no reason. As a workforce, the call center agent population is not your typical, conventional labor force. You are all way smarter than that. You deserve to be represented accordingly.

Good luck.

oh yes that is definitely a given, hence being careful with whom we select/ approach. personally i'm leaning towards call center workers-turned-lawyers if we have to go for legal representation, and their starting to grow in number :), i also know of quite a bit of agents-turned-nurses and agents-turned-architects and engineers so pretty much in the long run this industry will be self sufficient ;) :lol:

"Abuses" happen anywhere, even in normal offices but I don't think forming a union is necessary to correct these. Let's take the example of people with dayjobs. In effect all of them are also being "forced" to come in at daytime during weekdays even if one of them has to attend to something else on Wednesdays. What will the poor chap do now? Can an employee really choose his schedule in this case if his job requires him to be at his office from Monday through Friday? Do you see what I am driving at?

that's if you're the type of employee who thinks that way (in that regard maybe you ought NOT to be an employee and just be your own boss ;)). i'm talking about the regular, red-blooded, diurnal human being who has to take on an occupation thats quite different from the rest of the general populace. as i've said there are accepted occupational hazards, but just because there are doesnt mean we should just leave it to that. as i've said, keep improving the system, you'll be surprised how much better you are as a society in the long run. how the heck do you think America, Switzerland or Finland got to be what it is now?

Here's another example of respecting the availability of an employee in a call center environment. Has anybody heard of shift bid? Agents are being consulted for their availability and are being asked to select their own schedules based from a predefined roster. An agent chooses his schedule but still doesn't show up. What should the employer do in this case?

the agent is to be treated as any other errant party that has gone against an agreement. employer meets his part of the bargain but the employee doesnt do the the same? then sanctions are to be given according to the company policies. its kinda common sense at this point. this applies to all biz relationships, not just for call centers. the point of this whole thread is to look out for the concerns of the workers-- which even you company men must admit-- is the life blood of any biz. and given that most companies are more concerened with their stockholders, their managers and support staff or the bottom line, this thread highlights the other aspect thats important that affects the greater majority.

Respecting the availability of an employee is of course an aspect of human rights but we should also analyze the practicality of imposing such concepts.

as i've said man, compromise is the operative word here. its the key to the success of any relationship, biz or personal :).

There is nothing wrong with the concept but it isn't practical from the point of view of the business. I need you here now because you have the expertise to do the job at "this" time. You refuse to go because you need to be somewhere else. If you are the employer, what would you do then?

then look if there is another employee in your roster who can fit the demand w/o detriment to the other guy. since one employee is covering for what you demand have the other guy fill in what the other employee cant cover since taking on the new task. common sense dude. come on, as an employer cant you be creative or resourceful enough to resolve that problem w/o forcing your will? as i've said this is where compromise is key. it just needs a bit more thinking, a bit more creativity, a bit more hard work to keep all the balls up in the air, to make all the pieces fit the jigsaw puzzle. the "one size fits all" solution doesnt work when it comes to sourcing manpower, it never has and never will.

The thing is... in the RP setting companies are too lazy (actually its the HR) to accomodate the employee. i mean... hey! madami naman dyang papayag sa ganun set-up kasi DESPERADO makakuha ng trabaho.

that is so true. laziness and that "flea market" mentality is what permeates a great majority of the HR/Recruiting department in this country. back when i was abroad i'd tell stories of how HR people and working conditions are in the "white collar" industry here in the Philippines and the HR folks there were appalled. one even asked me if the Philippines was a democracy! :eek:. so goes to say, the HR practices here looks to be less democratic as its touting itself to be.

TravelBug

Feb 13, 2007, 07:43 AM

Let me tell you a story. Not too long ago we had another site somewhere in North America. The country's labor laws is known to be too employee friendly. None should be made to come to work between certain intervals of the day because subways are closed. Ask them to come in one minute early and you pay for overtime. Schedule adherence is a concept not reconized in this country. They will take their coffee breaks whenever they want to. If it is a national holiday then everybody has the right to not show up for work. They can volunteer but they should not be forced or you get sued. As a solution we offered holiday rates, incentives, free food and transpo and all extras you can ever think of but in most cases only 25% of the population will ever show up. Revenue leakage due to non-billable agent time combined with high cost of labor as a direct impact of unreasonably high shrinkage rates forced us to shut it down. Negative revenue. End of story.

TravelBug

Feb 13, 2007, 07:48 AM

then look if there is another employee in your roster who can fit the demand w/o detriment to the other guy. since one employee is covering for what you demand have the other guy fill in what the other employee cant cover since taking on the new task. common sense dude. come on, as an employer cant you be creative or resourceful enough to resolve that problem w/o forcing your will? as i've said this is where compromise is key. it just needs a bit more thinking, a bit more creativity, a bit more hard work to keep all the balls up in the air, to make all the pieces fit the jigsaw puzzle. the "one size fits all" solution doesnt work when it comes to sourcing manpower, it never has and never will.
Easier said. I dare you to do this without making my P&L sink and then you come back to me and kick my butt for not doing my job right. I will even hire you. Baka halikan ko pa paa mo. :lol: Compromise has a price too you know. There's nothing absolutely wrong with compromise per se but if compromising would mean incurring additional costs which would make me spend more than what I earn, then I should just shut the business down. What's the point of keeping a business if it isn't earning anyway?

pusicat

Feb 13, 2007, 10:28 AM

nov·el
Pronunciation:
\ˈnä-vəl\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, new, from Latin novellus, from diminutive of novus new

1 : new and not resembling something formerly known or used
2 : original or striking especially in conception or style

from here: http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

i dunno if you're just dumbing yourself down, but its actually a word that means more than the item found in libraries and bookstores. :bop:

wow galing mo naman kumopya sa ibang website. If you think that your so called eloquence is impressing someone then you better think again. I just hope you that make enough money out of that pretentious arse of yours otherwise the charade would get lost in the appearance.

and yes sir i could dumb myself down because i don't take myself too seriously and i know for a fact that i can not change the world through this forum. If you really want to make a difference then this is not the place for it.

pinoynetwit

Feb 13, 2007, 01:01 PM

Tanong lang po...meron bang KMU o BAYAN/MUNA affiliated labor union na nagtangka na magtatag ng labor union sa isang call center/BPO?

Disclamer: Hindi po ako espiya ng AFP.

b_9904

Feb 13, 2007, 11:46 PM

and yes sir i could dumb myself down because i don't take myself too seriously and i know for a fact that i can not change the world through this forum. If you really want to make a difference then this is not the place for it.

I.

ahhh... you just called me "BOBO" by the way. so you are NOT taking yourself seriuosly?

come on now.

oo na matalino kana! pero hindi naman namin tinatanong yun eh. ang habol namin dito eh mag post ka ng mga idea mo na related sa topic hindi mang-asar ng kapwa :rotflmao: (oo nga pala ang taong nangaasar ng kapwa pero wala naman ma-i-contribute sa topic ay isang taong... "EMPTY BETWEEN THE EARS")

II.

OK! THIS IS A FORUM! THIS MEANS WE ARE HERE TO EXCHANGE IDEAS.

hindi tayo nandito sa thread na ito para magtawanan at magchismisan. topic palang medyo seryoso na ng konti. (sarcasm) uulitin ko konti lang naman.

HOW DO WE CHANGE THE WORLD? we do not! (i know figure of speech)

however, we can change the industry or atleast discuss on how to do it, or how not to change the industry. RIZAL used the power of the pen to help bring about change. Malcolm X used his brains(actually it was the speeches he delivered). so why cant we use PEX.

how many call center agents, or applicants, read PEX?

answer that question and you'll get to answer the WHY we post here at pex.

remember to change the world all you need is ONE person to start changing it.

III.

so... do you really beleive that THIS is not the proper place to start brining about change?

HansMon

Feb 14, 2007, 12:27 AM

Took a step back to get a different perspective from the one I was coming from in previous posts so here goes:

Comp and ben arguments aside, I do agree with Travelbug, the implementation of this accommodation for personal schedule limitations is easier said than done. Its easy to criticize HR departments if you aren't in one. From a business perspective, it would just require more man-hours to juggle people's schedules around because they are not available on some days. At grabe ka-meticuloso ang BPO company. I just got our financial report for the 4th Qtr of 2006 and we have a peso equivalent gain/loss for everything from tardiness to the corporate giveaways we hand out. So for any HR department to get "creative", it will require that they devote peso-equivalent man-hours to something that takes them away from all their other more pressing duties. Yes, I know this sounds inconsiderate and inhumane but sadly people, to borrow the line of Marlon Brando in the Godfather, "its nothing personal...strictly business..."

The cold hard fact is that for as long as someone else out there CAN work the shifts that the BPO industry requires, then boo-friggin-hoo to the poor guy or gal who CAN'T work on a Wednesday or a Thursday for whatever valid reason.

From a recruitment standpoint, out of every 100, only 3-5 are hired. If applicant number 4 says he/she can't work the sked, look behind you, there are 95 more people who CAN or are at least WILLING to. I'd rather spend on TRAINING someone with below average comm skills but is willing to work the designated shift rather than HIRE someone more qualified but could be a possible red-flag for me within 60-90 days from date of hire. And given that attrition rates are on our scorecards, you're darn right I'm gonna hire the one that is willing to work the shifts with no questions asked.

Believe me, union or no union, you will not and cannot compel recruitment to hire someone who presents limitations from the onset. Simple lang yan, kundi pa siya empleyado, wala pa kayong hawak sa kanya at di niyo pwedeng diktahan ang kumpanya. While still in their probationary periods, Unions have no claim over employees until they are REGULARIZED. That gives Corporations six months to weed out anyone that could cause potential problems and that my friends is perfectly LEGAL. That is one of the few concessions given to Management by the DOLE.

As of now, its not so much the company you work for that you are up against as much as the multitudes of other fellow applicants who don't have your sked limitations and don't share your sentiments.

b_9904

Feb 14, 2007, 12:59 AM

ryan_blitz

Feb 14, 2007, 05:09 AM

Believe me, union or no union, you will not and cannot compel recruitment to hire someone who presents limitations from the onset. Simple lang yan, kundi pa siya empleyado, wala pa kayong hawak sa kanya at di niyo pwedeng diktahan ang kumpanya. While still in their probationary periods, Unions have no claim over employees until they are REGULARIZED. That gives Corporations six months to weed out anyone that could cause potential problems and that my friends is perfectly LEGAL. That is one of the few concessions given to Management by the DOLE.

This topic is really debatable... I havent seen or heard a contact center that has a union...

Let me tell you a story about a business/back-office process outsource before that is already closed here in metro manila. This company used to be the biggest. They do have a employees union. At one point in time. CBA was easily bargain due to high company profits... when the crisis came in on the late 90's management has to bargain less to the union. Unfortunately, the union does not want to. Case has been submitted to the labor commision and eventually the management won the case.

A company that has a union can be helpful since this will help the overall position balance between management and employees. A union will work if the employees has a self-regulation that they can relied with w/o management interferance.

The reason why the call center has no unions is that most employees does not want to have a self-regulation process. "Kanya-kanya" ang diskarte ng bawat isa, In and out ang agents are one of those reasons.

A sucessfull union will work only if a self-regulation of employees and union body and a recognition of the management to its duties... by the way there should be no such thing as 6 months within company probation. That is actually a miss-interpretation with a certain labor law created by former senator Joy Lina(damn bastared).

ryan_blitz

Feb 14, 2007, 05:36 AM

TravelBug

Feb 14, 2007, 06:10 AM

From a recruitment standpoint, out of every 100, only 3-5 are hired. If applicant number 4 says he/she can't work the sked, look behind you, there are 95 more people who CAN or are at least WILLING to. I'd rather spend on TRAINING someone with below average comm skills but is willing to work the designated shift rather than HIRE someone more qualified but could be a possible red-flag for me within 60-90 days from date of hire. And given that attrition rates are on our scorecards, you're darn right I'm gonna hire the one that is willing to work the shifts with no questions asked.
Exactamento! I guess you also see how much you are spending for attrition and absenteeism. Companies would rather deal with not so good but trainable people than hire somebody who potentially could have a dependability issue. 70% of a call center's monthly recurring expenses are manpower related. Agent salaries plus all the benefits they get (and want) are being built into the business case and it is THE primary determinant of the costs to be passed on to our clients. In order for us to stay competitive, we must keep the rates within reasonable limits. If we will provide a solution to each and every problem an agent would face then that would drive my pricing to go up and make my client walk out of my door and outsource to China instead.

<soul_jah>

Feb 14, 2007, 06:46 AM

I.

dude, bat mo pa paabutin sa NLRC kung pwede naman mag-negotiate ang company and employees. do you know how much a full blown litigation costs?

the case usually never ends in the NLRC... a party usually appeals it to another tribunal.

enlighten me... if my reasons are LAME what reason(s) then would justify forming a union for the industry?

II.

Yeah, we all know what we are getting ourselves into. the question would be, is that an excuse not to form a union?

maybe you could say that because you are close to the management or maybe you are having a great time with your job or maybe you are just so competitive that you can defend yourself.

well, how about those who arent as lucky?

should we just look the other way?

i had a friend from an in-house call center, which got sued twice, who was terminated, or rather there was a conspiracy to do so, simply because she cant dance the tune of her supervisor, who in turn have a lot of issues with other employees (Office politics at its best).

open door policies are for call centers that respect people... but how many call centers have that kind of policy?

III.

Maybe knowing what we are getting ourselves into is the problem.

we use it as an excuse to justify the crap we see in the industry.

well, martyrdom doesn't fit me.

IV.

Re: no one forced us to join the industry.

come on... every company forced us to join the industry by offering the most competitive employment package in the whole country. with that act certain responsibilities are attached to it, ei: to give thier agents what is due them.

V.

Chinese: doesn't have the sound of "g"

Indians: imagine a two filipinos speaking in english. one using the tagalog intonation and the other using the cebuano intonation. (hindi ko po intention na mang-insulto ng kahit sino na taga visayas and some parts of mindanao. example lang po ito to show a point)

so... to which country would the BPO industry run to again?

HK is over crowded and is under CHINA. Singapore... no more building space. Taiwan similar problems with Singapore and China. Japan... nah... they wont consider this place.

WE really have the upper hand no matter which angle you look at it. The industry already factored in corruption of goverment officials, red tape, and UNIONS into thier business plans (for the big companies atleast).

VI.

Would unions destroy the industry?

i really do not know and care coz i was born with a silver table set in my mouth but i am concerned for those poor souls who doesn't really have a choice and cannot protect themselves.

remember this:

1) US AND UK BASED COMPANIES are used to dealing with unions (even extreme ones) while ASIAN BASED COMPANIES are not.
2) The industry is composed of educated individuals, even the agents. so the possibility of extreme union action(s) (a.k.a. the usual labor unions like the one which "assaulted" nestle phils. in laguna) is minimized.
3) WE would be voting which union would represent us. SO WE have the option not to vote for the extremist union(s).

And now, let's here the arguments of the ANTI-UNIONISTS (this one's for Bozz <soul_jah>?).

whoa!:eek: ang tagal kong hindi nakabalik dito ah. and it seems that the discussions go deeper & deeper.

@b_9904..

didn't mean to offend you dude. like you've said, gusto mo lang ng exchange ng ideas & opinions. i stated my opinion. kaya ko lang nasabi na sobrang malamya ang mga reasons mo kasi, if you're really eager on having a union set up sa industriya natin, dapat i-align natin ito sa mga unyon na existing sa mga manufacturing firms, mga ilang multi-national companies, agricultural secotrs, etc. basically, anu-ano bang mga grievances ng mga yan? CBA, mataas na sweldo, security of tenure, etc.

eh what about sa industry natin? i think all of those examples that i've given have been answered & met: competitive salaries, a rich C&B packages, security of tenure (given the notion that you did well on your performance), name it. okay naman lahat e. kung tutuusin mas mapalad pa tayo sa mga gumagawa ng yosi, tagasako ng bigas, tagagawa ng mga piyesa ng kung anuano kasi wala tayong angal e.

ang akin lang, kung magtatayo tayo ng unyon dahil s mga injsutices tulad ng mga inutil na sup, b*llsh*t scheduling, etc. don't you think we should try to think deeper & look for a more valid reason why we must establish such a thing?*okay*

b_9904

Feb 14, 2007, 11:00 AM

One other thing... Its not within the legislator hands to have this problem be resolved... its within the company itself...

actually... IT DOES.

if congress decided to suspend all labor laws. then we, the employees, are doomed!

get the idea?

b_9904

Feb 14, 2007, 11:05 AM

[QUOTE=<soul_jah>;18692489]

@b_9904..

didn't mean to offend you dude. QUOTE]

dude, i wasn't offended. ganun lang talaga ako sumulat. for emphasis lang ba. hehehe

HansMon

Feb 14, 2007, 07:06 PM

^ this is the reason why i love debates/forums/FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

we learn something new.

anyway, with the problems with schedules HR can always adopt softwares.

with LEGALITIES well... lets elect pro-agent senators and congressmen nalang hahaha

Sorry, I had to laugh at this suggestion. I have yet to find a senator or senatorial candidate that knows his as-s from his elbow about the BPO industry other than that it generates a lot of jobs and has increased the demand for English proficiency.

Just as you are in danger of getting some militant pro-labor wacko if you do not carefully select who represents you, so too is the possibility of having some TraPo leech ride the crest of the BPO industry not so much for your benefit but to get his ugly mug in the news as the "champion" of CCR's and TCCR's.

On a sidenote and just to paint an even clearer picture, the Philippine government has granted so many incentives to BPO companies specifically because of the number of jobs that they provide. Should there be a possible threat of unionization among the workers, these BPO's might just form some kind of alliance and approach our government not as a single company but as a group. When that happens friends, you have a formidable opponent and again, you will have to defend your case of starting a union to the DOLE.

Dito maninimbang ang gobyerno at ang DOLE because while the DOLE is generally pro-labor, if the choice is between individual or compartmentalized grievances and possibly driving away such a huge job and revenue providing industry, who do yun think they will choose?

You need 50% + 1 of the total number of agents to even HAVE a viable case. Unless you have those numbers, you'd basically be "pissing against the wind."

TravelBug

Feb 14, 2007, 07:37 PM

Should there be a possible threat of unionization among the workers, these BPO's might just form some kind of alliance and approach our government not as a single company but as a group. When that happens friends, you have a formidable opponent and again, you will have to defend your case of starting a union to the DOLE.

CCAP or Contact Center Association of the Philippines has been in existence since 2001.

HansMon

Feb 14, 2007, 11:39 PM

CCAP or Contact Center Association of the Philippines has been in existence since 2001.

I've heard of this but what exactly do they do? Other than their existence and some "gentlemen's agreements" about not poaching from each other (which is never followed), what else does this Association busy itself with?

TravelBug

Feb 15, 2007, 03:22 AM

^^^They join trade missions abroad to promote the contact center industry here in the Philippines.

HansMon

Feb 15, 2007, 10:01 AM

^^^They join trade missions abroad to promote the contact center industry here in the Philippines.

Hmm. Interesting. Who formed this and who are the members? It seems a bit of a redundant function because most multinational contact centers here have a very strong marketing arm on their own.

_pinkposh_

Feb 15, 2007, 12:02 PM

Hmm. Interesting. Who formed this and who are the members? It seems a bit of a redundant function because most multinational contact centers here have a very strong marketing arm on their own.

www.ccap.ph

_pinkposh_

Feb 15, 2007, 12:09 PM

i am all for employees getting representation for them but from the contact center companies that i've worked for or at least had consultations with.. i have to say i don't think there's a need because agents are being treated like they're the kings and queens of the industry.. this might hold true only for large companies who have a good employee relations mechanism.. but for small companies who are encountering problems and have no means to address the issue, a union might be too harsh.. maybe a labor management council/committee is what we need.. that way we also remove the chance of the union being politicized..

in terms of posing a danger to the industry if we put up unions, let me share my experience with an rtd i attended at school with peoplesupport's vp hr - julie bouzan (not sure about her first name Ü):

student rep to bouzan: what do you think about agents forming organized committees in the industry?

bouzan: why would there be a need for it?

student rep: for representation.. or at least grievance machinery if something comes up..

bouzan: i don't see a need for it.. the company has good structure with addressing employees' concerns.. organizing unions and whatnot would actually make investors think twice about the stability or ease of establishing their businesses here in the philippines so this should be something that you should think twice about..

me: T_T

where could they go? instead of the philippines they can establish their business elsewhere and have Filipinos leave the country and be agents in china, singapore or wherever.. magiging ofw's na rin ang mga cc people.. heheh..

BeePeeOOO

Feb 15, 2007, 04:44 PM

Tanong lang po...meron bang KMU o BAYAN/MUNA affiliated labor union na nagtangka na magtatag ng labor union sa isang call center/BPO?

Disclamer: Hindi po ako espiya ng AFP.

Ikaw hindi espiya ng AFP? Para mo namang sinabi na ang duck ay hindi nag quack-quack! O kaya ang dog ay hindi tumatahol.:rotflmao:

http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2006/apr/05/yehey/opinion/20060405opi4.html

BIG DEAL
By Dan Mariano
KMU, Teamsters gang
up on call centers

FILIPINO leftists have found common cause with American unions—including some shady ones, targeting the relatively recent phenomenon of business process outsourcing (BPO) as exemplified by the dozens of call centers that have sprung up in the Philippines. While local Left-wingers dismiss call-center jobs as demeaning for their countrymen, the US unionists are angry that those jobs are going to foreigners like Filipinos and Indians.

A relatively recent phenomenon, call centers serve the information needs of the predominantly American customers of various businesses. They can do so thanks to the digitization of global telecommunications. Call centers in the Philippines now employ about 80,000 English-speaking Filipinos—and that figure is projected to grow further. The call centers reportedly generated some $1 billion last year. However, that is not good enough for some quarters.

The Kilusang Mayo Uno, Bayan Muna and similar organizations have condemned the BPO industry as a “hub for exploitation.” They dismiss work in contact centers as “dead-end jobs.” They point out that while call-center workers in Manila are each paid a monthly salary of about P15,000 their American counterparts get the equivalent of about P40,000.

A KMU spokesman was recently quoted as saying: “With the same amount of work, our call-center workers are receiving a lot less. This cost-saving measure means greater profit for [BPO] like the call-center industry but translates to greater exploitation for poor countries like the Philippines.”

In an ideal world a Filipino in, say, Cebu doing the same kind of work as his US counterpart in Michigan ought to get the same wages. If that were the case, however, foreign BPO companies would have no incentive to set up shop in the Philippines. Given the numerous hassles of operating overseas, the American owners of these businesses would prefer not to leave home.

But since there are enough Filipinos who can do the work of their American counterparts for a fraction of US wages, American and other BPO companies have found that by operating their call centers from out of the Philippines they can maximize their profits. And profit is what business is all about, right?

Besides, it is not as though the Philippines were the only country where call centers have been springing up like the proverbial mushrooms. In India, BPO investments sunk in by American and other companies are much larger.

The Filipino leftists’ campaign against call centers is supported by major US unions such as the International Brotherhood of Teamsters (wink, wink) and American Federation of Labor-Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO), which have been pressing for mainly state laws that would regulate outsourcing, if not ban it outright.

According to former ABS-CBN correspondent Mike Cohen, who is developing a story on the subject for an international news organization, India is the real target of the American unionists, but “you can expect some backlash for the BPO industries in the Philippines.”

To date, Cohen reports, over 30 American states have proposed legislation that would bar their state governments from contracting or subcontracting services from companies that employ people who are not American citizens.

Cohen quotes Mary Bottari of Public Citizen—a policy watchdog set up by US consumer advocate Ralph Nader—who said: “The goal of such policies is to keep taxpayers’ dollars working for the community and reflecting the values of the state.”

Legislation to penalize out*sourcing—also called “off*shoring” by Americans—have been either passed or filed in such states as Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Washington, Missouri, Minnesota and Indiana.

In a recent e-mail, Cohen writes: “To highlight the impact of offshoring American information technology jobs, the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers launched a Web-based advertising and fund-raising campaign on April 7. The first ad features Seattle-area tech workers who have lost jobs to offshoring, including one who, to receive severance pay and retain unemployment insurance eligibility, had to train her offshore replacement. To see the ads and learn more, visit www.washtech.org.”

Meanwhile, American unionists working with legislators in 33 states have introduced or plan to introduce model legislation developed by the AFL-CIO to slow the offshoring of American jobs, Cohen says. Among others, the legislation prohibits states from contracting with companies that send jobs out of the United States.

Critics of the burgeoning BPO industry in the Philippines fail to mention that call centers offer entry-level salaries that are the equivalent of supervisors’ pay in other companies, that call centers take in even undergraduates who would be automatically turned away by other employers, that call centers provide perks—such as subsidized meals, rest areas and even gyms—to keep their workers in top form, that the call centers have boosted other businesses.

Above all, call centers employ thousands of Filipinos who would otherwise be jobless. The Teamsters (which calls itself “the world’s most powerful union”), the AFL-CIO and other US unions want those jobs to go exclusively to Americans.

Is that what KMU and Bayan Muna also want?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DarthScully

Feb 15, 2007, 10:34 PM

Easier said. I dare you to do this without making my P&L sink and then you come back to me and kick my butt for not doing my job right. I will even hire you. Baka halikan ko pa paa mo. :lol: Compromise has a price too you know. There's nothing absolutely wrong with compromise per se but if compromising would mean incurring additional costs which would make me spend more than what I earn, then I should just shut the business down. What's the point of keeping a business if it isn't earning anyway?

hey dude/dudette, i just tell you how its done oversease in biz environments nearly identical to this one. and if they can do it why cant it be done here? as i've said there is no difference between the quality of workers there and here. in fact the workers are smarter here, so why shouldnt working conditions be better? and if you think it takes some superhero to do you job, listen, half the HR folks that handled hiring, scheduling, payroll etc arent even college grads (i bet you are at the very least), you dont have to be a degree holder to use some basic common sense and humanity do you? the HR folks i'm talking about are regular people, but the one thing that they take of value to them and apply to their work is their learning experience from the time when they worked Ops, or have a listening ear of folks from Ops on how to make working conditions better, then grab opportunities to implement them. i know a great deal of what makes your job difficult is the people you report to or the company you work for but hey, if you aint gonna speak out, if you aint gonna get things moving, how can progress be made/ how can things get better if you dont even try?

wow galing mo naman kumopya sa ibang website. If you think that your so called eloquence is impressing someone then you better think again. I just hope you that make enough money out of that pretentious arse of yours otherwise the charade would get lost in the appearance.
i take this as a compliment. thank you :). i dont really notice my eloquence unless somebody tells me. it feels so good to know i still got the gift of gab despite my dreary circumstances.

is that pretentious enough for yah? :lol:

and if you find all this a charade, by all means i grant you permission to read all my posts in this esteemed message board since 2001, get a Mod to help you if you so wish. you will see that i am as real as they come :).

and yes sir i could dumb myself down because i don't take myself too seriously and i know for a fact that i can not change the world through this forum. If you really want to make a difference then this is not the place for it.
then would grabbing a bullhorn and standing on top of a crate in the middle of Edsa be a proper place for it? trust me, so many people have done that with little results. message boards are relatively new, and given the kind of traffic these place generate why not give it a try and see if we could all make a difference this way, one pair of eyeballs at a time :)

btw, you asked for this hunny bun. if you had only posted something that contributes to the overall discussion instead of the failed attempt of being a smartaleck maybe you would've been regarded differently eh?

in terms of posing a danger to the industry if we put up unions, let me share my experience with an rtd i attended at school with peoplesupport's vp hr - julie bouzan (not sure about her first name Ü):

student rep to bouzan: what do you think about agents forming organized committees in the industry?

bouzan: why would there be a need for it?

student rep: for representation.. or at least grievance machinery if something comes up..

bouzan: i don't see a need for it.. the company has good structure with addressing employees' concerns.. organizing unions and whatnot would actually make investors think twice about the stability or ease of establishing their businesses here in the philippines so this should be something that you should think twice about..

me: T_T

where could they go? instead of the philippines they can establish their business elsewhere and have Filipinos leave the country and be agents in china, singapore or wherever.. magiging ofw's na rin ang mga cc people.. heheh..

you see this is the reason why the company men here say what they have been saying, the crookedness goes all the way to the top :rolleyes:. even if we could change the head honcho to someone more progressive what are we going to do with the Filipino culture of "let sleeping dogs lie"? thats why injustices fester in this place, Filipinos just let it. *sigh* you know what, i'm not even gonna go there anymore. i've been in one way too many arguments about East/West culture. i'm all debated out.

btw, i dont trust the KMUs or whatever current Union out there. all they do is bellyache about everything. i know they all have valid points, but it would be so much better if they actually do something to alleviate people's sufferings without waiting for the government to act.

b_9904

Feb 15, 2007, 11:09 PM

Sorry, I had to laugh at this suggestion. I have yet to find a senator or senatorial candidate that knows his as-s from his elbow about the BPO industry other than that it generates a lot of jobs and has increased the demand for English proficiency.

eto lang sasagutin ko hehehe law school demands so much of my time na kasi eh...

i laughed at the idea din. hehehe i was joking man. :lol: :lol:

TravelBug

Feb 15, 2007, 11:22 PM

hey dude/dudette, i just tell you how its done oversease in biz environments nearly identical to this one. and if they can do it why cant it be done here? as i've said there is no difference between the quality of workers there and here. in fact the workers are smarter here, so why shouldnt working conditions be better? and if you think it takes some superhero to do you job, listen, half the HR folks that handled hiring, scheduling, payroll etc arent even college grads (i bet you are at the very least), you dont have to be a degree holder to use some basic common sense and humanity do you? the HR folks i'm talking about are regular people, but the one thing that they take of value to them and apply to their work is their learning experience from the time when they worked Ops, or have a listening ear of folks from Ops on how to make working conditions better, then grab opportunities to implement them. i know a great deal of what makes your job difficult is the people you report to or the company you work for but hey, if you aint gonna speak out, if you aint gonna get things moving, how can progress be made/ how can things get better if you dont even try?
I'm a man.

I admire your never ending optimism but let's get real. This is a BUSINESS. Everything has an associated amount. You always say that this and that overseas. Then why do you think they are outsourcing part of their businesses to us?

DarthScully

Feb 16, 2007, 04:41 AM

I'm a man.

I admire your never ending optimism but let's get real. This is a BUSINESS. Everything has an associated amount. You always say that this and that overseas. Then why do you think they are outsourcing part of their businesses to us?

because a democracy like America wouldn't want to be associated with human rights violators like China. the only thing thats keeping the investments from going full blast there is this. if China was a democracy (or at least didnt have these human rights issues) they wouldnt even bother stopping by Singapore or Malaysia or heck even India, they'd make a beeline straight for China. and concentrate their efforts there. given theres that big obstacle America invests elsewhere while bidding their time with the Red Dragon.

Travel Bug, if we've reached this far and you still think i'm an optimist then you havent been understanding my lengthy posts, i am a realist. what i've been saying since the start is for real, it is a normal way of working life for a great many people. again i ask you this question, from one Filipino to the next, what makes those other people better than us that they enjoy a more decent life? why settle for where we are now if we can make this place, our people, so much better? shouldnt change start from within us, in a small community then let it spread liek wildfire? this whole culture of Deprivation is not normalcy. it has to stop. it must be changed.

i'll be honest with you guys, do you know how easy it is for a Filipino to turn his/her back on the Motherland and forget about our people? so ridiculously easy. depende na lang kung kaya mo masikmura yung ganun. ako hindi, sa totoo lang. kaya nga andito ako ulit eh, hoping that some little way i can influence the people around me to spark change and get things going.

ok, i am so getting off my soapbox now :bashful:

TravelBug

Feb 16, 2007, 05:00 AM

because a democracy like America wouldn't want to be associated with human rights violators like China. the only thing thats keeping the investments from going full blast there is this. if China was a democracy (or at least didnt have these human rights issues) they wouldnt even bother stopping by Singapore or Malaysia or heck even India, they'd make a beeline straight for China. and concentrate their efforts there. given theres that big obstacle America invests elsewhere while bidding their time with the Red Dragon.

Travel Bug, if we've reached this far and you still think i'm an optimist then you havent been understanding my lengthy posts, i am a realist. what i've been saying since the start is for real, it is a normal way of working life for a great many people. again i ask you this question, from one Filipino to the next, what makes those other people better than us that they enjoy a more decent life? why settle for where we are now if we can make this place, our people, so much better? shouldnt change start from within us, in a small community then let it spread liek wildfire? this whole culture of Deprivation is not normalcy. it has to stop. it must be changed.

i'll be honest with you guys, do you know how easy it is for a Filipino to turn his/her back on the Motherland and forget about our people? so ridiculously easy. depende na lang kung kaya mo masikmura yung ganun. ako hindi, sa totoo lang. kaya nga andito ako ulit eh, hoping that some little way i can influence the people around me to spark change and get things going.

ok, i am so getting off my soapbox now :bashful:

Uh, you haven't been understanding where I am coming from either. They are outsourcing the business to us because Filipinos can do the job at a fraction of the cost and that is a fact. Now, if you want to "make our lives better" but at the same time incur costs in the process, where do we pass the extra costs on? We pass this on to our clients, am I correct? It will come to a point when services done in the Philippines will become too expensive and doing business here will not be feasible anymore. At that stage, where would you think these businesses would head to?

DarthScully

Feb 16, 2007, 09:05 PM

we're going around in circles Travel Bug, i know the big bosses are concerned over costs, but where do you draw the line between cost saving measures and exploitation? i'm just watching out for the exploitation part. i know what you mean about Unions actually pushing up costs, one of the Unions from my workplace *was* the Teamsters, so i know how they think. as i've said, i dont want a call center union to be like that, we should help the workers and in turn the industry, not kill it.

duke Pikaso

Feb 17, 2007, 07:59 AM

oist.. antayin nyo sa dictionary meaning ng FILIPINO.. di lang ** Overseas Contract Worker.. magiging CALL CENTER AGENT/ REPRESENTATIVE na rin!! hehehe.. *peace*

para sakin, ok lang na may Union ang mga agents/sups sa callcenter.. kasi, kaya nga tinawag na Union, para magkaisa, isa ang hangarin, isa lahat.. hehehe

un lang.. kasi pagwatakwatak, magulo..

tska accdg nga dun sa kasabihan, mas ok daw *** walis tingting na itinali, kesa sa dun sa wataktak.. hehehe.. tama ba un??

niwei.. kung hei fat choi!!

b_9904

Feb 28, 2007, 01:55 PM

http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291516

recruit4nco

Mar 5, 2007, 09:48 AM

While reading the posts, some of the things that I thought of were:

1. Kinda hard for Unions in callcenters to get members organized when everyone's spread into 24/7 shifts.

2. A lot of callcenters have facilities or mechanisms to receive and act on grievances. It doesn't always have to be HR. Part of being a good manager is making sure that employee satisfaction is at a level or state where productivity is not compromised. This doesn't mean giving in to whatever we want. Employees just have to see and experience open lines of communication and some sense of urgency when acting on some issues.

3. A lot of the call center and BPO sevices outsourced to the Philippines were made on sales pitches that we have a union-less call center environment. And this creates a very positive impression on the prospective clients. Changing this could potentially mean less business for the Philippine call centers.

4. Unions to prevent exploitation at call centers? Unions should channel their efforts to other industries that blatantly exploit their employees. How can call center employees be exploited when they receive high compensation, great health and insurance benefits, additional perks, etc etc? Would they get these from any other industry at their ages? Would the younger generation even have jobs? Would they prefer queueing up in the different embassies and consulates so that they can work elsewhere?

5. Your average call center employee wouldn't even bother with a union. They just simply won't care. If they're unhappy with how they're being treated, then they move on to another company who would hire them in a second. Filing complaints and testifying to different judicial bodies will simply be too time consuming - and boring. They would rather be busy earning their next paycheck.
Reality check: the youth is not like how they used to make them. Unless this mentality is changed, unions will not be able to serve their purpose - just another allocated cost to my cost code.

Thanks

kc5169

Mar 10, 2007, 02:56 AM

These centersd would not closed down if they were being pushed by unions. Did you guys forget the reason why they are here in the first place? Cheap labor and the ability for americans to UNDERSTAND the english. If they went to China they wouldn't be able to understand the english, thats why they are leaving India. Cause too many complaints and english can't be heard. Everyone here has made fun of the way they speak, imagine an american thats never seen an Indian let alone heard them. A union is a good idea, call centers wont leave here, it's too perfect. They will just work with the union. Someone who has good charisma would be good to promote the idea. Hopefully it becomes aprivate company not a philippine government agency. In the US when you get hired at union type company, they are not an option, you HAVE to pay union dues, and it comes out to about 100 dollars a month. Here you could charge maybe 100 pesos a month. And only protect for employee rights as a person or as ane mployee, not for higher wages. Accepting higher or lower wages is your choice, your not forced into it.

BeePeeOOO

Jun 4, 2007, 05:56 PM

Hi!

Do you know if any call centers/contact centers where fronts of the CPP-NPA-NDF are organizing unions? I am referring to Bayan-Muna, Gabriela, Kabataan, KMU, Anak Pawis, Migrante. I was asked this question by a friend and fellow BPO worker who also works as an intelligence analyst. The president has reportedly expressed her concern at these sabeuteurs of the Philippine economy.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/v/MRc8Ombm8CM

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/v/CuYQMefpMYw

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/v/Ae6Tn4rwG_o

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/v/JilrQuFd6as

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/v/RXgsVrQv3VY

CallCenterVet

Jun 4, 2007, 08:40 PM

For Darthscully and Travelbug, most of the time, minding costs or "exploitation" as you may say, are only secondary to a CC manager's priorities only a daily basis. There's always his Service Level he needs to think of. If that entails him to reprimand somebody for not coming to work as he needs to because of a "shift bid" situation, he needs to go ahead and do it. If he needs to spend more just to get/reach his service level requirements, then by all means he will do it. Justifications can come later. If I was the boss of these managers, I would applaud their actions for the simple reason that they considered the client's satisfaction first above anything else.

For agents who agreed to be available anytime but are unable to fulfill their end of the bargain, that's just plain unprofessionalism. For those who have indicated their limited availability of working hours in a CC setting, I am really surprised how you got hired. CC work is very demanding. If you are unable to arrange somebody to take care of anybody who needs care, that;s just plain narrow-mindedness. Your family needs you to work so you can support/take care of them. On a manager's point of view, it's just one of the lamest excuses around.

As for the possibilities of unions in the CC/BPO. I agree on some of the comments made already that it would not be sustainable for reasons of high attrition, difference in pay, general non-interest and a lot more.

Ask a person who works in a CC if they see any future in working in a call center... 80% would say they don't consider this a career and they do not see themselves growing old in a CC environment.

CallCenterVet

Jun 4, 2007, 08:49 PM

Also shift-bidding is well under the legal right or control of CC's managers to implement. If one can't adapt because a pretense, he needs to be mature and professional enough to work when needed. If this cannot be done, he should find work elsewhere where his pretense can be accomodated. Most probably not a CC.

InBkgd

Jun 5, 2007, 09:04 AM

on his way to work, mr callcenter agent collapsed inside the jeepney and he was rushed to the hospital. he was absent from work because of this.

he was terminated because he did not call in to inform two hours before his shift. therefore, no call no show.

policy is, one occurence of ncns merits termination.

policies are policies right?

how about not getting your holiday incentive because accordingly you are working american hours? you work on the holiday itself however you dont get the incentive since supposedly you are working "american hours". :bop:

these are some of the cases that would make you want a union to assist you.

then again, you can just bug hr or your manager about this and hope that something good will come out of it.

interesting thread :)

duke Pikaso

Jun 6, 2007, 06:22 AM

may call center association of the philippines naman na ah..
sana mapasok ng Bayan Muna or ng Kabataan!!!

AFA

Jun 6, 2007, 11:36 AM

ccap is only for the bpo's themselves...not for the employees. headed by bong borja of peoplesupport

cookiecookie

Jun 6, 2007, 01:57 PM

i think before we can start or organize a union in this industry, it would be better if the employees of these call centers are mature enough to handle different situations..mature in a way that things should be dealt objecctively .

b_9904

Feb 27, 2008, 03:14 AM

I'm revisiting this thread:

To answer some of the rebuttals, specifically the high attrition rate of the industry and the possible abuse and destruction of the indsutry should we unionize.

Well, there are two kinds of unions. The rank-and-file union and the supervisors union.

Obviously the former isn't feasible due to the possibility of abuse and the high attrition rate of the agent but if we include the back office peeps into the picture then its safe to say that a union for rank and files is moderately viable.

The latter union gives more promise. The attrition rate for supervisors in the industry, both for back office and production, is lower and the possibility of abuse is also tampered by the assumption that the higher you go the more mature you become, of course this is just an assumption we all know that this isn't always the case.

Now what can a union do for the industry. Dispute resolution is on the top of my mind but its the CBA that really brings home the cake. Imagine a CBA that contains a provision to maximize fringe benefits in order to minimize income taxes for the employees or a provision that stipulates that the cost of the pantry will not be deducted from your salary.

In any case, I maintain my position that unionizing the BPO industry wont bring about its demise. Why? because the concept of unions came from the west and western companies knows how to deal with them. Besides, peeps in CCs aren't the type who would storm the gates of thier employers armed with stones and pillboxes when they dont get what they're asking for. (I'm keeping my fingers crossed while typing this paragraph)

@ScorpionKing@

Feb 28, 2008, 12:00 AM

Joining Labor Unions does not necessarily mean "storming gates" or throwing pillboxes" at employers. Unionizing should be viewed as protecting "labor rights" and not stereotyped as violent activists...

It does make sense to unionize. Afterall, call centers are the biggest violators of labor laws. I've personally known several labor violations that never materialized because plaintiffs preferred to settle instead of going through trial.

But the CC labor force is too young and too restless to even consider unionizing. Someday, maybe... *okay*

b_9904

Feb 28, 2008, 12:12 AM

^dude,

I was answering the fears posted earlier in this thread, in an exagerrated manner of course. Lighten up.

Anyway...

But the CC labor force is too young and too restless to even consider unionizing. Someday, maybe

You said it yourself dude. Unions are there to portect labor. so if NOW is not a good time then when is?

The answer is... NOW!

IMHO, its better sooner than later.

@ScorpionKing@

Feb 28, 2008, 12:19 AM

^dude,

I was answering the fears posted earlier in this thread, in an exagerrated manner of course. Lighten up.

Anyway...

You said it yourself dude. Unions are there to portect labor. so if NOW is not a good time then when is?

The answer is... NOW!

IMHO, its better sooner than later.

When somebody gets enough balls to start one. :rotflmao:

b_9904

Feb 28, 2008, 12:29 AM

When somebody gets enough balls to start one. :rotflmao:

:lol: OR... pag may sinipag na mag usap usap at magtayo.

:D teka... i think its both.

pinoynetwit

Feb 28, 2008, 06:34 PM

b_9904

Feb 28, 2008, 07:03 PM

^woah! 20% kada bwan... dang...

I wonder if labor related issues are directly related to attrition. hmmm....

Anyway, pag reasonable naman ang bond kahit contract of adhesion yun eh pwede i-demand ng employer. Siguro super laki ng bond na absurd, unreasonable, and unjust na siya for the employee (Our laws and jurisprudence are very pro labor kasi).

PS: Thanks for the info dude

@ScorpionKing@

Feb 28, 2008, 07:09 PM

b_9904,
High attrition...hmmm one call center went as high as 20% per month. Quite infamous for labor Code violations.

Scorpionking,

Settled the case and paid damages to the employees yung mga cases na intimate ako. I do get to correspond with lawyers and media people involved in labor cases. There was even this BPO na mahilig magpataw ng malaking bond but can't collect since the contract they impose is a "contract of adhesion" that is so one-sided in favor of the employer. The company is even infamous for giving poor training.

Sino naman yang mga nag-settle yan yan pinoynet? Kwento mo naman ang mga situations nila! Leave out the names para they can't say anything. We just want to let everyone know how they were treated by their company and how they outwitted them damn capitalists... hehehe

Hint naman din dyan kung sino yan BPO na 20% attrition... hehehe:bop:

pinoynetwit

Feb 29, 2008, 09:40 PM

Yung pinangyarihan 20% per month na attrition ay infamous sa industry to the point that the HR of several BPOs don't mind demanding the employee clearance from ex-employees of this company...

pinoycallcenter

Mar 3, 2008, 05:32 PM

hi po sa lahat!

iniimbitahan ko po kayong lahat na sumali samin sa http://www.pinoycallcenter.com.....

kita kitz po tayo dun

maraming salamat po

mellowscream

Apr 1, 2008, 11:43 AM

kumusta na ba ang mga labor unions?

kumagcow

Apr 3, 2008, 06:35 AM

Are you aware of any? If none, bakit kaya? Does it have something to do with the Westernized culture? Pero kahit NBA di ba may players union.
Would you dare establish and/or join one if put up in your company?
Could there be any legal implications?
Kindly share your insights.
Lolz *okay* *okay* *okay*

Kahit paano pala may sense ka rin maglagay ng topic par no? hehehe
Congrats!
Wehehehhe......

:lol:

I see some companies also having these things stipulated in contracts barring the employee from doing so...I just dont have the document at hand but I know it was mentioned.... and classified as a major offense... which would result to getting thrown out afterwards... no chance to do this in ours.... now that you mentioned it...I should probably check that out here....

superbad

Apr 3, 2008, 08:59 AM

pinoynetwit

Apr 3, 2008, 06:04 PM

Read WILL THERE STILL BE SUNSHINE TOMORROW? (http://marketingmanila.wordpress.com/2008/02/13/will-there-still-be-sunshine-tomorrow/):

Excerpt:

The Philippines used to be investor-friendly having one of the most affordable high-quality labor in the world whole of Southeast Asia. Unfortunately, due to the usual catalysts such as our weird sense of democracy, globalization westernization, and the omnipresent Kilusang Mayo Uno (not that I hate them), our country and its work force is no longer considered as best buy by the likes of Intel, IBM, and soon enough, all of P&G.

Something to think about these organizations...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRc8Ombm8CM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuYQMefpMYw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae6Tn4rwG_o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JilrQuFd6as

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXgsVrQv3VY

b_9904

Apr 3, 2008, 09:27 PM

Kahit paano pala may sense ka rin maglagay ng topic par no? hehehe
Congrats!
Wehehehhe......

:lol:

I see some companies also having these things stipulated in contracts barring the employee from doing so...I just dont have the document at hand but I know it was mentioned.... and classified as a major offense... which would result to getting thrown out afterwards... no chance to do this in ours.... now that you mentioned it...I should probably check that out here....

Well you could actually sue the company for stipulating in the contract that they'll terminate you if you join a union. its a violation of your constitutional right and a mere contract can't be considered as a waiver of that right. (Employment contracts, are most likely, contracts of adhesion so thats another point in the employees favor).

b_9904

Apr 3, 2008, 09:33 PM

Read WILL THERE STILL BE SUNSHINE TOMORROW? (http://marketingmanila.wordpress.com/2008/02/13/will-there-still-be-sunshine-tomorrow/):

Excerpt:

The Philippines used to be investor-friendly having one of the most affordable high-quality labor in the world whole of Southeast Asia. Unfortunately, due to the usual catalysts such as our weird sense of democracy, globalization westernization, and the omnipresent Kilusang Mayo Uno (not that I hate them), our country and its work force is no longer considered as best buy by the likes of Intel, IBM, and soon enough, all of P&G.

Eto lang: I see a better world without these groups (refering to it and to its brothers and sisters orgs).

d observer

Apr 10, 2008, 09:22 PM

Well you could actually sue the company for stipulating in the contract that they'll terminate you if you join a union. its a violation of your constitutional right and a mere contract can't be considered as a waiver of that right. (Employment contracts, are most likely, contracts of adhesion so thats another point in the employees favor).
b_9904 is online now Reply With Quote -- i agree, we also have the same contract where we are not allowed to form union, you are right that it's a constitutional right but then again it's so hard to convince fellow agents even you reiterate to them that we have the right to self-organization, kahit pa nga iladlad mo sa mukha nila iyong bill of rights sa constittution!

d observer

Apr 10, 2008, 09:46 PM

i can recommend a reading research b yProf. Jorge V. Sibal of UP SOLAIR-Strengthening Off-shoring in the Philippines : Issues And Concerns-its suggests that basic action on how to organize workers in call center industry. we know for a fact that massive attrition is a deterrence in forming a union and according to the research the better alternative would be an industry union, during the marcos regime it predominantly existed but later on during cory administration-she issued an executive order putting an tot his kind of unionization of workers. but if you review the history of labor in the philipppines, formulating law should be responsive to the ever changing times and with the current trend in the labor sector as far as this industry is concerned i think there's no other options than to try it. you can download copies of the said research from the website of up solair under research menu.

d observer

Apr 10, 2008, 09:48 PM

BeerhandBop

Apr 10, 2008, 10:51 PM

silvertooth

Apr 10, 2008, 11:02 PM

Some Teleperformance employees have organized an online labor union. check out their site at http://tpwatchers.tk

Does this mean the TP watchers have the balls?

b_9904

Apr 11, 2008, 12:51 AM

silver:

not really pero its a start.

beer:

union also could help the industry you know.

BeePeeOOO

Apr 11, 2008, 07:58 AM

Something to think about these organizations...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRc8Ombm8CM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuYQMefpMYw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae6Tn4rwG_o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JilrQuFd6as

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXgsVrQv3VY

How much do get paid for demonizing leftists all over the internet?

Your military friends websites even openly discuss extra judicial killing and torture of leftists.

mahiya **** kayo palibhasa mapera kayo at may kapit kaya mga kalaban idadaan sa paninira sa media at pagpatay!

BeerhandBop

Apr 11, 2008, 08:03 AM

"union also could help the industry you know."

yeah. by forcing companies to close down.

nasaan na yung mga Unions that were ever present during the 80s?

yeah.. they're gone.. LoLz

d observer

Apr 11, 2008, 11:17 AM

Have you people ever wondered why there arent much Unions nowadays... When back in the day, there were unions everywhere?

That's cause all the Unionized shops closed down. Lawlz.

want the same thing to happen to you beloved call centers?---yes,we already wondered that more than a decade ago, its part of globalization-chk what this process means-during the ramos presidency he travelled a lot to invite foreign investors and what were his offers then: cheap, docile & flexible labor, and thus the beginning of downsizing,eradication of unions,displacement of workers plus establishment of union-free zones. those were the days that companies who had strong unions hired hrd vp who are famous union busters dissolve job position and eventually the unions. unons are not not lawlz. union roots came from industrialized countries-principally from UK, please review philippine history -the GOMBURZA Bigotry boiled down from workers exploitation during the spanish that led to countless revolutions.

d observer

Apr 11, 2008, 11:32 AM

that was also the decade- mid 90's that then Sen. Herrera and Rep. Gonzales of Bataan joint authored a bill- SB 333-labor only contracting- it became a law. but given the situation also in a case-to-case basis ,it does not apply to every enterprise especially to call centers. see, meaning there were instances that are not applicable to certain conditions-Loenzo Macchiavelli quoted "the end justifies the means", meaning no impossible to unionize call centers. during Marcos era he created Gen.Order # 5 banning all workers to stage a strike or any labor unrest, but again history repeated itself,workers of la tondeña defied that order and it drew national attention, that strike was supported by many church people students & civilians. it means ,people no matter how resilient they are tend to rebel should constant exploitation persists.

d observer

Apr 11, 2008, 11:38 AM

and who is former Sen.Ernesto Herrera, founding members of famous Trade Union Centers in the Philippines, along with his brother-in-law Democrito Mendoza who jointly own an agency for airport porters located in Cebu. Sen.Herrera was also the one who authored an anti labor law RA 6715.

d observer

Apr 11, 2008, 03:19 PM

"union also could help the industry you know."

yeah. by forcing companies to close down.

nasaan na yung mga Unions that were ever present during the 80s?

yeah.. they're gone.. LoLz

---yes,we already wondered that more than a decade ago, its part of globalization-chk what this process means-during the ramos presidency he travelled a lot to invite foreign investors and what were his offers then: cheap, docile & flexible labor, and thus the beginning of downsizing,eradication of unions,displacement of workers plus establishment of union-free zones. those were the days that companies who had strong unions hired hrd vp who are famous union busters dissolved job position and eventually the unions. unons are not not lawlz. union roots came from industrialized countries-principally from UK, please review philippine history -the GOMBURZA Bigotry boiled down from workers exploitation during the spanish that led to countless revolutions.

b_9904

Apr 11, 2008, 09:09 PM

pinoynetwit

Apr 23, 2008, 08:41 PM

Beebop:

Without unions the Filipinos will ALL be in sweat shop industires. So yes unions help.

However, the leftist supported union groups are the ones that kills most, if not all, the companies that left the Philippines. Its also known as EXTREMIST unions.

Try reading some labor cases and you'll appreciate what a union can do for you.

Re: Leftist groups

I dont need pinoynetwit's propagandas to see that the extreme left is bad for your healh :D

I believe that these fronts of the "neps" - as my military/police friends call them in the local military colloquialism - can better serve the interest of us BPO employees by focusing their attention on:

salary disputes deliberately poised by corrupt managements.

metrics that are deliberately set so high so that employees can be easily dismissed from their jobs.

contractualization that circumvents the 6-month regularization.

company rules that are so draconian - terminating an employee for browsing non-business related websites.

yung mga performance incentives, gifts and freebies na SOBRANG BAKYA AT BADUY dahil pinatungan ng mataas na kickback.

Sadly...after examining the teeming internet websites of these Nep fronts I've seen nothing but dogmatic pronouncements that do not touch on the realities of abuses in the industry.

b_9904

Apr 30, 2008, 07:51 AM

News from the grapevine:

I heard something really disturbing...

One call center near makati med has an employee incentive program which, to my opinion, really breaks the labor code (pati civil law pa).

Here are the details:

1) Even if you've already earned the incentive, meaning your simply waiting for the incentive to appear on your pay slip, if that CC fired you or you resigned you will no longer recieve the incentive.

2) Even if that CC made a mistake and forgot to credit the incentive on your pay slip if you are no longer with the company they'll refuse to give you the incentive.

3) The argument of that company is simple: The company's manual/policy says so.

Well kahit na ako nagulat sa reason na yun eh. masakit pa dito nung sinabi nung resigned/terminated agent na illegal daw yun at against the law nagkwento yung dept head na nagaasikaso nun na mas mahal pa daw sa incentive ang gagastusin sa pag bayad sa abugado pag may sumubok na magdemanda.

Wow, ganda ng reason ng dept head! :lol:

pinoynetwit

May 1, 2008, 08:56 PM

b_9904

May 1, 2008, 11:21 PM

^the agent resigned. hindi siya wrongfully terminated.

pero yung incentive nya ang nawala.

recruit4nco

May 2, 2008, 02:51 AM

Unions will scare the call centers away. Try visiting some call center websites and you would see that our non-unionized call center industry is a major selling point. ;)

recruit4nco

May 2, 2008, 02:56 AM

Bzou

May 2, 2008, 09:26 AM

It would be really nice to have one. It sounds cynical but with how we handle our business it will be another venue for politics. It's bad enough that CCs are already known for that.

snapcase

May 3, 2008, 07:55 PM

pwede ba tayong magtayo ng unyon para sa buong industriya intead of per company? because of the atrition rate. i'm willing to join one.*okay*

b_9904

May 6, 2008, 06:25 AM

re: performance incentives...

it is important to note th e difference between a bonus and an incentive. bonus are guaranteed amounts and can be prorated if you leave the company. incentives are forfeited as soon as your employment is terminated.

Generally, you are wrong. UNLESS, its stated in the EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT (and even that could be challenged in court).

Anything EARNED cannot be forfieted to the company by mere quitclaim, a provision or two in the handbook or company policy.

There aren't any differences in BONUSES and INCENTIVES if an incentive can be construed as a bonus and vice versa. To be safe, each case should be decided based on its facts.

b_9904

May 6, 2008, 06:34 AM

pwede ba tayong magtayo ng unyon para sa buong industriya intead of per company? because of the atrition rate. i'm willing to join one.*okay*

hehehe, that would be nice. even ideal.

pero you'd still need representatives in each cc para sa certificate elections.

watay

May 6, 2008, 12:35 PM

a labor union in the call center industry of the Philippines --- sounds good --- ideally.

my aunt used to be a unionist from CMC (California Manufacturing Company --- makers of royal noodles, lady's choice, best foods etc). used to be because CMC was bought by Unilever and their union bargained for a good deal for their redundancy. also, before the takeover, all their employees were happy to work for the company with the benefits they have from the manufacturing to delivery to the sales to the office people. i admired the kind of union they had. it was a company union --- no affiliations with what you call the "leftists". their CBA was good.

this is my idea when it comes to unionizing in the call center industry --- a company union. the people who know what to bargain for and how to bargain for the employees will be the employees themselves. since they know how much the company gets in profits or what the numbers are. the only outsider might just be a labor lawyer.

as to the attrition rates that stops people from venturing into unions, i think there should be no problems about it. since there are "veterans" or tenured agents/employees who could maintain a certain number for the union to exist --- thus, this union not only consists of the agents but also supervisors and back office people.

there is talk of the unions scaring the industry we are working for. i don't think it should be a problem since the unions are there to bargain and not to demand outrightly. they are there to look into and take care of one of the most important if not the most important asset of the company --- the employees.

we may not be complaining about our wages since we receive way more than the minimum wage. we may be complaining about working conditions and better compensation packages --- non-taxable if possible.

most of the call center employees are young and some don't even need to go to work. you see them as another hindrance in putting up a union. they only need to see what the union will give to them. what benefits they would get if they are union members. they need guidance from the more "mature" employees. maybe this should be the first part of the groundwork --- convince them that a union is needed.

there was a suggestion about a general union that will just have chapter reps --- i disagree. the reason i stated above.

i suggest though that call center unions be organized into a general body --- something like the national association of call center unions (naccu) or philippine association of call center unions (paccu)

hehe -- kidding aside, there should be an exchange of ideas for unions in the same industry but it should be pointed out that what worked for this company might not work for another.

this could pave the way for legislation of a magna carta for call center workers.

the groundwork is hard and the road is bumpy. hard work never fails though.

b_9904

May 6, 2008, 04:47 PM

as to the attrition rates that stops people from venturing into unions, i think there should be no problems about it. since there are "veterans" or tenured agents/employees who could maintain a certain number for the union to exist --- thus, this union not only consists of the agents but also supervisors and back office people.

dude,

hiwalay lagi ang union ng rank and file sa sups.

reason: to prevent a union from becoming too powerful.

jiju_e

May 6, 2008, 06:46 PM

pa-hirit lang po... "The rights we enjoy today were not served to us in a golden platter, they were fought by people who loved their countrymen". I have always believed that it is better to be vocal and be branded as a leftist or communist rather than be apathetic. We have different opinions on whether to unionize or not. One thing I can say, I salute the people who will be able to organize a union who will cater to call center employees. It's about time. c",)

b_9904

May 6, 2008, 09:04 PM

jiju_e

May 6, 2008, 10:45 PM

^dude,

differentiate leftist unions from extreme left, and moderate.

d porke union man/woman ka eh leftist kana.

I repeat i am for moderate center/left unions but i am against left and extreme left.

I agree. Hindi porket union member ka e leftist ka na kasi pede yung union mo e SD or ND line. Well, hindi ko naman sinabi na automatic na leftist ka pag union member ka. Ang sinabi ko, I do not care if they, the people, will brand me leftist or communist, basta hindi ako apathetic. I respect your stand about you being against extreme left organizations. Ako, I am not against CCP/NDF/NPA or to organizations that they say " CCP/NPA fronts". Ang masasabi ko lang, they have different idiologies and principles in life, and they believe that what they are doing is right. ANg tama naman is such an abstract word or concept. Basta, I will salute the people who will fight for the rights I enjoy now.... Kasama na dun ang Unyon, whether the union is leaning to left or right. That is my stand and I hope you can respect that.

watay

May 7, 2008, 12:38 PM

just to clarify: i have nothing against what you may call "leftist" that's why i had it in quotation marks. to be honest, i might even be called a "leftist" and i consider myself left of center.

but whatever ideology you or any person may have -- from the extreme left to the extreme right - that's your own and i respect that but cannot and should not be imposed on others.

jiju_e - i agree with you that whatever rights we have --- someone or a number of people have fought for these rights. kaya nasabihan ko officemate ko at one time nung may rally sa malapit sa office that she should just shut up and be thankful that these people do the fighting for us when we enjoy our above average compensation benefits in an air-conditioned office while they sweat it outside. that the only inconvenience that she will experience is the traffic jam after work. AND SHUT UP SHE DID! :D

b_9904 - ideals lang naman yung sinabi ko --- in a perfect world ;)
besides, i consider TLs as more rank and file than management > parang line supervisor sa isang planta. but you go ahead with your plans and like what i said, it's a long road and yes sometimes it feels it's a lonely one.